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[Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

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mlc
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by mlc » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:08 pm

What's the benefit to this over UVL, and why did you choose to create it? Simply out of interest, or because there is some flaw you see with UVL/its update schedule/something else? I can understand why you'd want to share your work if you're simply doing it as an intellectual exercise, but why create a second version of something we already have? I'd agree that this just encourages an ecosystem where each homebrew will only work on one of the two loaders, so what's the motivation when your loader is already probably at a disadvantage? I'd hope it's not a matter of "x doesn't get along with yifanlu" or something like that - if that was the case you'd really want to have a substantial reason as to why his work is more risky. (sorry to suggest this, I just know it's pretty common in "scenes" so I can't completely dismiss it as a possible motivation)
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hgoel0974
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by hgoel0974 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:07 pm

I've thought things over and so I'll be honest, I did start this project partly on a whim and it's true that it will only fragment the scene and that I could have just modified UVL to do everything this does, but I want to stick to my work, as it gives me the freedom to go in whatever direction I want. It also creates some competition which wouldn't be bad. Sure I've reinvented the wheel, but by working on this I've gained an understanding of how the entire homebrew loading process works, I've understood things like how opening files won't work if memory isn't locked, or how the 0th bit in a branch instruction controls whether things use ARM or THUMB, and after that now that I have a working loader, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong by choosing to release it and to continue to work on it. I'm thinking of this situation as similar to things between ARK and TN-V, sure TN-V was closed source and all, but it was all about the features, I get to pick my way and go at my pace for my loader, you get to pick your way and go at your pace with yours.

I want to push things faster, getting things done and having a system setup that works cleanly and I have the time to do so too, so I think it's totally fine for me to want to do it my way.

@mlc, I don't think it's going to encourage an ecosystem where each homebrew only works with one or the other (at least I won't be trying to do something like that)
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internally-Blazed
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by internally-Blazed » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:37 pm

Yifs kinda agree
Yes it will fragment the scene but its also competition which is always good.
Plus your point with writing a GUI ontop and UVL to load the back end is fair as well though since they want to have control I guess its up to them.
Im a dragon in the scene. I've modded everything i can get my hands on :)

Learning C for the vita :)

yifanlu
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by yifanlu » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:14 pm

For those who spew the competition bs, please read this: http://www.saurik.com/id/20

I've voiced my frustrations on the IRC and I'll do it here also. I am tired. I am tired of trying to herd the scene into one direction. I know it's arrogant to assume I am the shepard, but for the last three years, people have constantly asked me for help and then ignored what I said. They make me the leader--first unwillingly, then begrudgingly--and then refuse to be led. There's the shitshow that is OILIX (which hgoel0974 was a part of) where, after a member accused me of being unhelpful, I spent 6 months answering every question and telling all the members exactly how to hack the vita (step by step from looking at webkit to how to rop) and then nothing came out of it except a couple of blog posts to make some ad money.

Then there's the SDK. I've said for the last three years that if someone were to take the initiative and make an SDK, I would release an exploit to run homebrew. Nobody did anything. I had to write a detailed specification on how the SCE ELF worked in order to incite development. Then, when the SDK was made, 173210, who had no Vita development experience, ignored my tool implementation advice and decided to do things his way (although he did use my SCE ELF specs). Along the way, he ran into many problems that I anticipated when I wrote the recommendations, and psp2sdk took a lot longer to make than vita-toolchain. This is because 173210 saw this as a competition (telling me on Twitter that he wishes to "win" even though I said publicly that I don't care as long as an SDK is made). Sure, psp2sdk works and I recommend it to developers because 173210 is providing more support than I will; but a project based on shaky foundations will forever have to be patched and maintained.

I'm going to continue my arrogance: I've spent three years looking at the Vita, the file formats, and everything. I know how it works better than most people outside of sony. The code you see is based on hundreds of iterations and fixing failures. The competition does nothing but give the illusion that two projects are all "just code" whereas UVL was written with in depth knowledge of the Vita.

I've talked with xerpi about it before and we both agreed that a menu system based on a future UVL revision where UVL exports SCE ELF loading functions, and abstract away the details of a menu was the right way to go. That way, the menu (along with all the messy gui code) is its own ELF and the loader can be simple. However, either hgoel0974 didn't have this conversation that I had with xerpi or he did and ignored it. I welcome advice and debate, but that was not the case here.

So, like I said, I am tired of wasting my time trying to design something stable and lasting and seeing others just ignore me. Yes, that's whiny and yes that's being over-dramatic, but I think the problem is not with the community, but with me: I care too much. I get too invested and I get disappointed when things don't go my way. Nobody is going to pick up UVL (even in the last three years) and instead start their own projects. Just like nobody picked up vita-toolchain. And I'm sure VitaDefiler will go into the wayside too. Because nobody wants to be just a "contributor," they like credits more than they like helping. And after it's all said and done, they'll tell you it's because they like "competition." Well Jay, you and I share this world.

Anyways, I think it's best for all of us that I leave with my demanding attitude. I'll try to finish homebrew menu exports for UVL and work with Netrix to get Unity for PSM working. Because I don't back away from my promises. I may also work on memory cleanup for UVL. But after that I'm leaving the scene. I am tired of all of this.

For any of you who were mentioned in the hello world: thanks. I've had a positive experience working with you no matter how grand or insignificant our time together was. My frustrations do not involve you.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

kingknuts
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by kingknuts » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:42 pm

yifanlu wrote:For those who spew the competition bs, please read this: http://www.saurik.com/id/20

I've voiced my frustrations on the IRC and I'll do it here also. I am tired. I am tired of trying to herd the scene into one direction. I know it's arrogant to assume I am the shepard, but for the last three years, people have constantly asked me for help and then ignored what I said. They make me the leader--first unwillingly, then begrudgingly--and then refuse to be led. There's the shitshow that is OILIX (which hgoel0974 was a part of) where, after a member accused me of being unhelpful, I spent 6 months answering every question and telling all the members exactly how to hack the vita (step by step from looking at webkit to how to rop) and then nothing came out of it except a couple of blog posts to make some ad money.

Then there's the SDK. I've said for the last three years that if someone were to take the initiative and make an SDK, I would release an exploit to run homebrew. Nobody did anything. I had to write a detailed specification on how the SCE ELF worked in order to incite development. Then, when the SDK was made, 173210, who had no Vita development experience, ignored my tool implementation advice and decided to do things his way (although he did use my SCE ELF specs). Along the way, he ran into many problems that I anticipated when I wrote the recommendations, and psp2sdk took a lot longer to make than vita-toolchain. This is because 173210 saw this as a competition (telling me on Twitter that he wishes to "win" even though I said publicly that I don't care as long as an SDK is made). Sure, psp2sdk works and I recommend it to developers because 173210 is providing more support than I will; but a project based on shaky foundations will forever have to be patched and maintained.

I'm going to continue my arrogance: I've spent three years looking at the Vita, the file formats, and everything. I know how it works better than most people outside of sony. The code you see is based on hundreds of iterations and fixing failures. The competition does nothing but give the illusion that two projects are all "just code" whereas UVL was written with in depth knowledge of the Vita.

I've talked with xerpi about it before and we both agreed that a menu system based on a future UVL revision where UVL exports SCE ELF loading functions, and abstract away the details of a menu was the right way to go. That way, the menu (along with all the messy gui code) is its own ELF and the loader can be simple. However, either hgoel0974 didn't have this conversation that I had with xerpi or he did and ignored it. I welcome advice and debate, but that was not the case here.

So, like I said, I am tired of wasting my time trying to design something stable and lasting and seeing others just ignore me. Yes, that's whiny and yes that's being over-dramatic, but I think the problem is not with the community, but with me: I care too much. I get too invested and I get disappointed when things don't go my way. Nobody is going to pick up UVL (even in the last three years) and instead start their own projects. Just like nobody picked up vita-toolchain. And I'm sure VitaDefiler will go into the wayside too. Because nobody wants to be just a "contributor," they like credits more than they like helping. And after it's all said and done, they'll tell you it's because they like "competition." Well Jay, you and I share this world.

Anyways, I think it's best for all of us that I leave with my demanding attitude. I'll try to finish homebrew menu exports for UVL and work with Netrix to get Unity for PSM working. Because I don't back away from my promises. I may also work on memory cleanup for UVL. But after that I'm leaving the scene. I am tired of all of this.

For any of you who were mentioned in the hello world: thanks. I've had a positive experience working with you no matter how grand or insignificant our time together was. My frustrations do not involve you.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!


PLEASE PLEASE we need you dont leave
We know this sucks but they are paying just for pecators "Justos por Pecadores" Spanish phrase. Please.
Or otherwishe thanks for your efforts :cry: :cry: :cry:

garrlker
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by garrlker » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:52 pm

Wow, well the community will hate to see you go.
Thank you for all you've done and I hope you succeed in whatever else you end up doing.

RikuKurai
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by RikuKurai » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:06 pm

You've done a good job, yifanlu. Im sure hgoel had good intentions for making his loader - he said something along the lines of memory usage/management was why he made it, if I'm not mistaken.

acex222
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by acex222 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:13 pm

weegee wrote:kthxbye 8-)
You're such a massive ****.

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internally-Blazed
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by internally-Blazed » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:21 pm

yifanlu wrote:For those who spew the competition bs, please read this: http://www.saurik.com/id/20 ....
In the article he makes a number of valid points, "app store of app stores", "competition and fast poor decisions...hoarding...stressfulness". He is right now I think about it, western culture has instead inspired people to compete rather than place their efforts together. Cutting out the fame and money, agree with that also.

hgoel0974 is also doing it for his own educational purposes, and i guess releasing what he has. Perhaps we could so the same and merge them together.

So we can all collab and all collate, if needed, whilst maintaining a great code base. But at the same time there's always going to be that one guy who won't listen. I guess all we can do then is attempt to reason, if they listen great, if not just continue and ignore as thats out of anyones control. If ywe look at it a macro way, steam and origin, apple and android, dhl and ups, they all do the same underlying thing, just people have difference preferences and opinions in what they want or prefer. See steam, its so amazing that origin is just got crushed because of it.

But yeah, this articles pretty good, thanks for bringing it up. Of course you care much, its only natural for someone to care after they've poured their countless hours, days, months, years into this project. It takes a really really strong will to keep attempting. No ones annoyed, I'm sure everyone appreciates the work (I sure do which is why I've started to learn C because of the insane effort you all put, time i got rid of my Java and C# triggers too hehe). Its shouldn't be about credits, it should be about helping, developing, progressing. But then when most (I'm guessing) of us are born in western culture its pretty difficult to switch from that mindset.
Last edited by internally-Blazed on Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Im a dragon in the scene. I've modded everything i can get my hands on :)

Learning C for the vita :)

SaltySticks
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by SaltySticks » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:30 pm

yifanlu wrote:For those who spew the competition bs, please read this: http://www.saurik.com/id/20

I've voiced my frustrations on the IRC and I'll do it here also. I am tired. I am tired of trying to herd the scene into one direction. I know it's arrogant to assume I am the shepard, but for the last three years, people have constantly asked me for help and then ignored what I said. They make me the leader--first unwillingly, then begrudgingly--and then refuse to be led. There's the shitshow that is OILIX (which hgoel0974 was a part of) where, after a member accused me of being unhelpful, I spent 6 months answering every question and telling all the members exactly how to hack the vita (step by step from looking at webkit to how to rop) and then nothing came out of it except a couple of blog posts to make some ad money.

Then there's the SDK. I've said for the last three years that if someone were to take the initiative and make an SDK, I would release an exploit to run homebrew. Nobody did anything. I had to write a detailed specification on how the SCE ELF worked in order to incite development. Then, when the SDK was made, 173210, who had no Vita development experience, ignored my tool implementation advice and decided to do things his way (although he did use my SCE ELF specs). Along the way, he ran into many problems that I anticipated when I wrote the recommendations, and psp2sdk took a lot longer to make than vita-toolchain. This is because 173210 saw this as a competition (telling me on Twitter that he wishes to "win" even though I said publicly that I don't care as long as an SDK is made). Sure, psp2sdk works and I recommend it to developers because 173210 is providing more support than I will; but a project based on shaky foundations will forever have to be patched and maintained.

I'm going to continue my arrogance: I've spent three years looking at the Vita, the file formats, and everything. I know how it works better than most people outside of sony. The code you see is based on hundreds of iterations and fixing failures. The competition does nothing but give the illusion that two projects are all "just code" whereas UVL was written with in depth knowledge of the Vita.

I've talked with xerpi about it before and we both agreed that a menu system based on a future UVL revision where UVL exports SCE ELF loading functions, and abstract away the details of a menu was the right way to go. That way, the menu (along with all the messy gui code) is its own ELF and the loader can be simple. However, either hgoel0974 didn't have this conversation that I had with xerpi or he did and ignored it. I welcome advice and debate, but that was not the case here.

So, like I said, I am tired of wasting my time trying to design something stable and lasting and seeing others just ignore me. Yes, that's whiny and yes that's being over-dramatic, but I think the problem is not with the community, but with me: I care too much. I get too invested and I get disappointed when things don't go my way. Nobody is going to pick up UVL (even in the last three years) and instead start their own projects. Just like nobody picked up vita-toolchain. And I'm sure VitaDefiler will go into the wayside too. Because nobody wants to be just a "contributor," they like credits more than they like helping. And after it's all said and done, they'll tell you it's because they like "competition." Well Jay, you and I share this world.

Anyways, I think it's best for all of us that I leave with my demanding attitude. I'll try to finish homebrew menu exports for UVL and work with Netrix to get Unity for PSM working. Because I don't back away from my promises. I may also work on memory cleanup for UVL. But after that I'm leaving the scene. I am tired of all of this.

For any of you who were mentioned in the hello world: thanks. I've had a positive experience working with you no matter how grand or insignificant our time together was. My frustrations do not involve you.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!
I'm the guy who wouldn't say thanks to a person for doing such a thing, and that's not because I'm arrogant, but it's because a 'Thanks' doesn't help too much (Other than give a small bit of motivation in a way) . If I had the time and interest in learning the multiple things needed to contribute to such projects, I would, but sadly, the world resolves around money, and unless you have enough money (Which most people don't) to spend days on end working on such projects, therefore I have to focus on making a living rather than learning sadly.

On the other side, everyone complains about the same thing... 'Piracy'. Just look at the 3DS scene, they didn't have any 'DS-mode' exploits, which made any way to run home-brew on it, good (Referring to smea) and then a group of people have realised a way to download and run games for free, and from then on, tons of people have contributed to the scene, and everyone wanted piracy at the end. It is all to do with the mindset people have. We all know that we can run home-brew apps on the Vita through the ePSP, but we also all know that android phones and tablets do it better. The 3DS on the other hand, was made unlike any other sony console, how you may ask? Their design differs to the PsVita and it can't just be emulated by phones or tablets.

At the end of the day, people will give other people **** for doing really amazing work, and that's just how this world works, and I get what you mean.
Enough rambling on about how this 'shitshow' scene works, I wish you farewell Yifanlu once the day comes

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