dummydecks

All about getting the AI less baka...
rawsugar
Posts: 228
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:05 am

dummydecks

Post by rawsugar »

would it has any interest if i start compiling a list of cards the AI seems unable to use intelligently so that they can be removed and replaced in the AI decks? Fx the AI in the game i just played, played a card doing 2 damage to any player putting a land card into play and ended up killing itself. Im sure theres some synergy in the deck that a human player would know about and be able to take advantage of but being played by the AI the deck would benefit more from a card that was more straightforward I'd think.
another example is destruction of all lands/creatures where a calculation of own creatures vs opponents creatures needs either improvement/adding or the card should be replaced since the AI has defeated itself w this card a number of times already.

Also: does the AI get better later on? I saw a mention of unlocking higher difficulty at some point...or is it the cards/decks that get better?
wololo
Site Admin
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Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:42 am
Location: Japan

Re: dummydecks

Post by wololo »

rawsugar wrote: Also: does the AI get better later on? I saw a mention of unlocking higher difficulty at some point...or is it the cards/decks that get better?
There are two things.
1 is the difficulty settings. It doesn't make the AI better, but the AI starts with one or several lands into play
2 Is the AI's "auto learning" ability. The more you play against it with your deck, the more it learns which of your cards are powerful. This is automatic. The system is not perfect of course, but basically it makes the AI a bit better against decks that rely on a few specific cards.
rawsugar
Posts: 228
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:05 am

Re: dummydecks

Post by rawsugar »

ahh i see, and as to the list of cards that could be replaced taking into account the AI's limited game sense? wont bother unless someone will at least consider it^^
abrasax
Posts: 976
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:46 am
Location: Switzerland

Re: dummydecks

Post by abrasax »

Hi,

There is indeed cards that the AI does not seems to use inteligently, but that doesn't mean they need to be removed from the game, in your example the cards could have make the AI win in an other situation...

That being said there is cards that the AI seems unable to use AT ALL... meaning the AI never use such cards... sometime they just stay in his hand sometime they stay on the battlefield and the AI simply never used their ability... typicall example are double land and/or land able to produce more than one mana, other typicall example is the millestone... these cards should/could be replaced... A lot of AI deck are issued from competition and some of them are indeed using cards that cannot be used by the AI at all... If you have time to list all this specific cards/deck and suggest some replacement then please do it, if you have also suggestions to improve AI deck by replacing cards then please do so...

Grü

Abra
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rawsugar
Posts: 228
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:05 am

Re: dummydecks

Post by rawsugar »

ok so here's the list of changes i'd like to have implemented until the AI gets more intelligent. Most of these are removing pacifism and such : The Ai will almost always focus most on your first creature and then possibly spread it out a little (ive been told that this is due to AI regarding some monsters that have hurt them alot inpast games as a great threat - typically that would be the first creature since im fond of powerup enchantments - even so, so far it sees this is an issue), dark rituals which the AI will use well 1 in 10 castings as best and for the rest simply waste. And finally day of judgments which the AI is unable to time/judge when it has creature advantage or not, so these make sense when theres some way to make sure the comp doesnt hurt itself more than the player (persist+heartmender (brilliant:P) or no creatures), but not so much in a more basic creature deck.

deck 40
4 dark rituals--> 4 unholy strength
deck 45
out w all 10 poisons (pacifism paralyze etc)
tangle asp *4 (deathtouch snake)
festering wound*4
deck 54
replace pacifism 4
paraluze 3
bound in silence 4
with
death grasp 4 (white/black drain life, goes great w this deck even if AI is shifty on X type spells)
festering wounds 4
second thoughts 3
deck 70
4 dark rituals-->4 (in)glorious anthem
angels cheering on thrulls and trolls might be a little strange but maybe its deranged angels? and certainly 1/1 life link critters would benefit from a boost like this
deck 78
3 day of judgment-->3 calcify
Ai cant destroy its own creatures since they are all white
4 pacifism-->4 chastice
deck 86
4 day of judgment-->4 unmake
deck 97
4 dark rituals-->2 hypnotic specter, 2 unmake

btw I was quite surprised when i went through the decks, I wasnt aware ppl were putting so much effort into the story element. I set out to replace all the creatures that have alternatives with similar slightly better abilities gave up on it when i saw how important this seemed to be.
Last edited by rawsugar on Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zethfox
Posts: 3029
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:28 pm

Re: dummydecks

Post by Zethfox »

hey raw, we dont have that many custom Ai deck builders...if you can make wicked Ai decks that can stomp a average player by turn 5 :P i wouldnt mind adding it to the Svn.
rawsugar
Posts: 228
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:05 am

Re: dummydecks

Post by rawsugar »

sure, ill give it a try...bit tricky since i still haven´t unlocked many cards, and still havent figured out how to update the game.
Also i have a weak spot for levelers like student of warfare or kargan as well as equipment cards like sword of ice and fire and AI doesnt seem to be able to use those effectively. Levels just once and doesnt re-use equipments.
Still, i have 1 of most of the better cards so should be able to make some decks...
rawsugar
Posts: 228
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:05 am

Re: dummydecks

Post by rawsugar »

ok, im afraid im a fairly average player. Never made a deck till i started wagic bout 3 weeks ago so not very imaginative. Just went creatures and since the Ai is a pussy that cannot attack without numerical superiority i went for many creatures. Like this:

The goblin king:
Goblin king *1
Goblin war strike *4
lightning bolt *4
meekstone*4
mogg war marshal *4
raid bombardment *4
rise of the hobgoblins *4
siege gang commander*4
warren instigator *4
uphill battle *3
dragon fodder *4
mountains *20
meekstone and uphill battle: creatures come into play tapped and power 3+ does not untap, and a shitload of little annoying goblins. Can shut any creature deck down, blast you in a few turns or get stuck with a lot of enchantment and no creatures. Still, gives me pause when I play against (cant play it myself yet, lack many of the cards beyond first)

Tuktuk's Goblin wargang:
Tuktuk the explorer *1
claws of valakut*4
dragon fodder*4
goblin king *4
lightning claws *2
lightning bolt *2
mogg war marshall *4
Rise og the hobgoblins *4
siege gang commander *4
warren instigator *4
bloodmark mentor *2
bravado *3
mountains * 22

mass goblins with imba looted gear

Elven punitive delegation
Fyndhorn elves*4
creakwood liege *4
drove of elves *4
leatherback baloth *4
rancor *4
beacon of creation *4
rofellos, llanowar emissary *4
silk lash spider *2
branchwood armor*3
murkfiend liege *2
beastmaster ascension*3

Tbh mostly a sort of green all stars with a lot of medium big creatures. Cant really think of a storyline that would make 4 druids and rofellos herd creakwood and murkfiend lieges to war but...it does work:)
As i said im not exactly pro at this game not sure if you can have more than one of a legend as long as just 1 is in play. He's essential for speeding the deck up but i suppose he can be replaced by llanowar elves (birds get killed by the spider:P).

Not very imaginative, but like i said im still collecting cards. When i start having the cards to make decks that dont rely on creatures for damage i will try to make some draw/deplete decks.....need more cards to get a feeling for what might be possible and playable by the AI.
Also made a sliver deck but the AI got weird about it, holding on to creatures that it seemed able to cast and stuff. Did kill me in 6 turns but also got stuck alot.
Zethfox
Posts: 3029
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:28 pm

Re: dummydecks

Post by Zethfox »

:) hey story is a big part, BUT i wouldnt personally mind having decks that can be the snot out of me that have no story basis...i found the Ai really is quite dumb, but if you load decks with tons of token generators and creatures with lord abilities, it can be a very scary opponent...

and about legends, you can have 4 in deck, but only 1 on the field of any given name.
rawsugar
Posts: 228
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:05 am

Re: dummydecks

Post by rawsugar »

ye...altho we should try our best to expand the possibilities, my pyrrhomania or pestilence decks are slightly too succesful atm;)
In the beginning the goblin decks included 1 or 2 Bogart shennanigans (1 dmg to opponent if goblin is killed) but had to give that up: first because effects like these have trouble; fx aetherflame affects only the first creature when several are summoned by 1 spell, not sure that was the issue here tho, more likely it had to do with the issue like what i experienced with warren instigator or lackey: instead of AI summoning a goblin creature i was given the opportunity to do so.
Still...wish AI was able to calculate outcomes of blocks/attacks...its a little sad how effective first strike is at decimating AI summons, or how powerful shadowcreatures with lifelink can be held back by small summons if they outnumber them.

btw did the decks make the cut? All 3 give me a fair challenge tbh:)
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