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[Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

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St3f
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by St3f » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:20 am

yifanlu wrote:For those who spew the competition bs, please read this: http://www.saurik.com/id/20

I've voiced my frustrations on the IRC and I'll do it here also. I am tired. I am tired of trying to herd the scene into one direction. I know it's arrogant to assume I am the shepard, but for the last three years, people have constantly asked me for help and then ignored what I said. They make me the leader--first unwillingly, then begrudgingly--and then refuse to be led. There's the shitshow that is OILIX (which hgoel0974 was a part of) where, after a member accused me of being unhelpful, I spent 6 months answering every question and telling all the members exactly how to hack the vita (step by step from looking at webkit to how to rop) and then nothing came out of it except a couple of blog posts to make some ad money.

Then there's the SDK. I've said for the last three years that if someone were to take the initiative and make an SDK, I would release an exploit to run homebrew. Nobody did anything. I had to write a detailed specification on how the SCE ELF worked in order to incite development. Then, when the SDK was made, 173210, who had no Vita development experience, ignored my tool implementation advice and decided to do things his way (although he did use my SCE ELF specs). Along the way, he ran into many problems that I anticipated when I wrote the recommendations, and psp2sdk took a lot longer to make than vita-toolchain. This is because 173210 saw this as a competition (telling me on Twitter that he wishes to "win" even though I said publicly that I don't care as long as an SDK is made). Sure, psp2sdk works and I recommend it to developers because 173210 is providing more support than I will; but a project based on shaky foundations will forever have to be patched and maintained.

I'm going to continue my arrogance: I've spent three years looking at the Vita, the file formats, and everything. I know how it works better than most people outside of sony. The code you see is based on hundreds of iterations and fixing failures. The competition does nothing but give the illusion that two projects are all "just code" whereas UVL was written with in depth knowledge of the Vita.

I've talked with xerpi about it before and we both agreed that a menu system based on a future UVL revision where UVL exports SCE ELF loading functions, and abstract away the details of a menu was the right way to go. That way, the menu (along with all the messy gui code) is its own ELF and the loader can be simple. However, either hgoel0974 didn't have this conversation that I had with xerpi or he did and ignored it. I welcome advice and debate, but that was not the case here.

So, like I said, I am tired of wasting my time trying to design something stable and lasting and seeing others just ignore me. Yes, that's whiny and yes that's being over-dramatic, but I think the problem is not with the community, but with me: I care too much. I get too invested and I get disappointed when things don't go my way. Nobody is going to pick up UVL (even in the last three years) and instead start their own projects. Just like nobody picked up vita-toolchain. And I'm sure VitaDefiler will go into the wayside too. Because nobody wants to be just a "contributor," they like credits more than they like helping. And after it's all said and done, they'll tell you it's because they like "competition." Well Jay, you and I share this world.

Anyways, I think it's best for all of us that I leave with my demanding attitude. I'll try to finish homebrew menu exports for UVL and work with Netrix to get Unity for PSM working. Because I don't back away from my promises. I may also work on memory cleanup for UVL. But after that I'm leaving the scene. I am tired of all of this.

For any of you who were mentioned in the hello world: thanks. I've had a positive experience working with you no matter how grand or insignificant our time together was. My frustrations do not involve you.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!
The internet grows yearly, minds and goals change along and a normal person gets back in the shadows.
Thanks for your info/hack releases, hope the shadows will bring you luck.
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by gabreek » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:57 am

yifanlu wrote:For those who spew the competition bs, please read this: http://www.saurik.com/id/20

I've voiced my frustrations on the IRC and I'll do it here also. I am tired. I am tired of trying to herd the scene into one direction. I know it's arrogant to assume I am the shepard, but for the last three years, people have constantly asked me for help and then ignored what I said. They make me the leader--first unwillingly, then begrudgingly--and then refuse to be led. There's the shitshow that is OILIX (which hgoel0974 was a part of) where, after a member accused me of being unhelpful, I spent 6 months answering every question and telling all the members exactly how to hack the vita (step by step from looking at webkit to how to rop) and then nothing came out of it except a couple of blog posts to make some ad money.

Then there's the SDK. I've said for the last three years that if someone were to take the initiative and make an SDK, I would release an exploit to run homebrew. Nobody did anything. I had to write a detailed specification on how the SCE ELF worked in order to incite development. Then, when the SDK was made, 173210, who had no Vita development experience, ignored my tool implementation advice and decided to do things his way (although he did use my SCE ELF specs). Along the way, he ran into many problems that I anticipated when I wrote the recommendations, and psp2sdk took a lot longer to make than vita-toolchain. This is because 173210 saw this as a competition (telling me on Twitter that he wishes to "win" even though I said publicly that I don't care as long as an SDK is made). Sure, psp2sdk works and I recommend it to developers because 173210 is providing more support than I will; but a project based on shaky foundations will forever have to be patched and maintained.

I'm going to continue my arrogance: I've spent three years looking at the Vita, the file formats, and everything. I know how it works better than most people outside of sony. The code you see is based on hundreds of iterations and fixing failures. The competition does nothing but give the illusion that two projects are all "just code" whereas UVL was written with in depth knowledge of the Vita.

I've talked with xerpi about it before and we both agreed that a menu system based on a future UVL revision where UVL exports SCE ELF loading functions, and abstract away the details of a menu was the right way to go. That way, the menu (along with all the messy gui code) is its own ELF and the loader can be simple. However, either hgoel0974 didn't have this conversation that I had with xerpi or he did and ignored it. I welcome advice and debate, but that was not the case here.

So, like I said, I am tired of wasting my time trying to design something stable and lasting and seeing others just ignore me. Yes, that's whiny and yes that's being over-dramatic, but I think the problem is not with the community, but with me: I care too much. I get too invested and I get disappointed when things don't go my way. Nobody is going to pick up UVL (even in the last three years) and instead start their own projects. Just like nobody picked up vita-toolchain. And I'm sure VitaDefiler will go into the wayside too. Because nobody wants to be just a "contributor," they like credits more than they like helping. And after it's all said and done, they'll tell you it's because they like "competition." Well Jay, you and I share this world.

Anyways, I think it's best for all of us that I leave with my demanding attitude. I'll try to finish homebrew menu exports for UVL and work with Netrix to get Unity for PSM working. Because I don't back away from my promises. I may also work on memory cleanup for UVL. But after that I'm leaving the scene. I am tired of all of this.

For any of you who were mentioned in the hello world: thanks. I've had a positive experience working with you no matter how grand or insignificant our time together was. My frustrations do not involve you.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!
C'mon guys, you just need to complement each one, i don't see whats happening here as a good thing to the scene that barely begins, its time to come together and make things happen, the vita hacking scene need to be a community where every one help each other, the knowledge that hgoel0974 acquired after making this loader can be useful in the future to improve UVL and vice versa, it's not about the fragmentation it's about having more options and more knowledge.
I'm not talking specifically to one of you, but to everyone, you guys are amazing (**** amazing), you just need to come together
And please Yifan Lu, stay, we need you, as we need every one possible to make things keep going amazingly as it is
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Judahel
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by Judahel » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:42 am

@hgoel0974 you've my support. Good luck
@yfanlu the same.
Someone thinks different here?

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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by hinata » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:49 am

I'm honestly tired of drama and I'm sure others who are just innocent bystanders are as well. However yifanlu does have a point although having multiple loaders does create competition it does fragment the community forcing developers to choose or manage multiple builds for different loaders which just means more time spent troubleshooting and bug checking instead of improving the overall product. For the end user which many of us are it just means having to choose which they feel is the better instead of just having one unified build that has everything.

It's a shame that yifanlu feels he has to leave the scene after spending many years with the Vita but if that is what he chooses then sadly all we can do is give our words wishing him luck or beg for him not to.

If you do read this which I doubt because I'm a nobody, an end user, no one important or significant just know that I really appreciate the time and effort you put into hacking this device, I hope you will continue to contribute after you leave even if it's occasional.
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PS Vita 2002 - OFW 3.60 HENkaku
Vita TV - OFW 3.60 HENkaku

romain337
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by romain337 » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:44 am

What you have tried to do with the VITA is really cool yifanlu. But you can't predict what the people will do. If it's not hgoel0974, it will be another person and later, those hacker that want iso and piracy.

I want to thanks you for your work because I've buyed my PSVITA almost only to do what we can do today. I wish to say thanks to all other people involved into this hack and toolchain too.

bunnymod
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by bunnymod » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:49 am

yifanlu wrote:For those who spew the competition bs, please read this: http://www.saurik.com/id/20

I've voiced my frustrations on the IRC and I'll do it here also. I am tired. I am tired of trying to herd the scene into one direction. I know it's arrogant to assume I am the shepard, but for the last three years, people have constantly asked me for help and then ignored what I said. They make me the leader--first unwillingly, then begrudgingly--and then refuse to be led. There's the shitshow that is OILIX (which hgoel0974 was a part of) where, after a member accused me of being unhelpful, I spent 6 months answering every question and telling all the members exactly how to hack the vita (step by step from looking at webkit to how to rop) and then nothing came out of it except a couple of blog posts to make some ad money.

Then there's the SDK. I've said for the last three years that if someone were to take the initiative and make an SDK, I would release an exploit to run homebrew. Nobody did anything. I had to write a detailed specification on how the SCE ELF worked in order to incite development. Then, when the SDK was made, 173210, who had no Vita development experience, ignored my tool implementation advice and decided to do things his way (although he did use my SCE ELF specs). Along the way, he ran into many problems that I anticipated when I wrote the recommendations, and psp2sdk took a lot longer to make than vita-toolchain. This is because 173210 saw this as a competition (telling me on Twitter that he wishes to "win" even though I said publicly that I don't care as long as an SDK is made). Sure, psp2sdk works and I recommend it to developers because 173210 is providing more support than I will; but a project based on shaky foundations will forever have to be patched and maintained.

I'm going to continue my arrogance: I've spent three years looking at the Vita, the file formats, and everything. I know how it works better than most people outside of sony. The code you see is based on hundreds of iterations and fixing failures. The competition does nothing but give the illusion that two projects are all "just code" whereas UVL was written with in depth knowledge of the Vita.

I've talked with xerpi about it before and we both agreed that a menu system based on a future UVL revision where UVL exports SCE ELF loading functions, and abstract away the details of a menu was the right way to go. That way, the menu (along with all the messy gui code) is its own ELF and the loader can be simple. However, either hgoel0974 didn't have this conversation that I had with xerpi or he did and ignored it. I welcome advice and debate, but that was not the case here.

So, like I said, I am tired of wasting my time trying to design something stable and lasting and seeing others just ignore me. Yes, that's whiny and yes that's being over-dramatic, but I think the problem is not with the community, but with me: I care too much. I get too invested and I get disappointed when things don't go my way. Nobody is going to pick up UVL (even in the last three years) and instead start their own projects. Just like nobody picked up vita-toolchain. And I'm sure VitaDefiler will go into the wayside too. Because nobody wants to be just a "contributor," they like credits more than they like helping. And after it's all said and done, they'll tell you it's because they like "competition." Well Jay, you and I share this world.

Anyways, I think it's best for all of us that I leave with my demanding attitude. I'll try to finish homebrew menu exports for UVL and work with Netrix to get Unity for PSM working. Because I don't back away from my promises. I may also work on memory cleanup for UVL. But after that I'm leaving the scene. I am tired of all of this.

For any of you who were mentioned in the hello world: thanks. I've had a positive experience working with you no matter how grand or insignificant our time together was. My frustrations do not involve you.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Thank you for all that you've done yifanlu. Its been an honor having you here in the Scene all these years, I been around since the start, but never really took part in much because I was young and going through alot of things, but always took interest in all the hard work and effort, not just in Vita scenes but others as well.

As for the whole competition thing.. It sort of reminds me of the whole "Skyrim online" thing that has been worked on, on and off since a couple years ago, and recently someone else picked up the project and its like basically treating it like its a competition. Tamriel Online vs. Skyrim online..

It really makes me think. Why can't people who work so hard, to make something great come together and make it something far more spectacular, rather than compete for glory? Guess its ego. All the internet and, really all society really is at this point..

Nevertheless. I look forward to the future, and your contribution over time here will not be forgotten. Goodluck.
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by fate6 » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:21 am

How about we get back on topic, If someone wants to take this "thanks" fest to its own thread then go nuts but come on guys!
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by hgoel0974 » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:38 am

fate6 wrote:How about we get back on topic, If someone wants to take this "thanks" fest to its own thread then go nuts but come on guys!
This^
Please stay on topic guys.
Today's progress included some code cleanup, bug fixes,creating a means of configuring settings for the loader by a menu/any homebrew, starting homebrew on a separate thread so the loader can handle other background work while homebrew is running, the ability to add hooks and some test code for exit and suspend combos.
Finally, for menu developers, I've put together a library in order to allow making menus that work with VHL, there are still a few things missing for proper multitasking to be handled by a menu, but that should be done in a few days. There is enough to launch homebrew though. LibVHL is at https://github.com/minPSVSDK/libVHL

Changes to end user experience aren't significant enough for a new build, there should be a new build tomorrow though. Feel free to ask about any features you think VHL should get and I'll see if I can do it. :)
"If the truth is a cruel mistress, then a lie must be a nice girl"

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King Clyde
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by King Clyde » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:06 am

hgoel0974 wrote:
fate6 wrote:How about we get back on topic, If someone wants to take this "thanks" fest to its own thread then go nuts but come on guys!
This^
Please stay on topic guys.
Today's progress included some code cleanup, bug fixes,creating a means of configuring settings for the loader by a menu/any homebrew, starting homebrew on a separate thread so the loader can handle other background work while homebrew is running, the ability to add hooks and some test code for exit and suspend combos.
Finally, for menu developers, I've put together a library in order to allow making menus that work with VHL, there are still a few things missing for proper multitasking to be handled by a menu, but that should be done in a few days. There is enough to launch homebrew though. LibVHL is at https://github.com/minPSVSDK/libVHL

Changes to end user experience aren't significant enough for a new build, there should be a new build tomorrow though. Feel free to ask about any features you think VHL should get and I'll see if I can do it. :)
You could possibly have an .INI that allows you to configure settings such as Restart VHL on Crash, Current Framerate, Current Application Speed, Current Application Running Time etc. (The last 3 being primarily for homebrew developers) Maybe it could generate a log or something? I'm not sure just figured it would be a neat idea so I'm just throwing it out there :mrgreen:

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hgoel0974
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Re: [Development thread] VHL : Vita Homebrew Loader

Post by hgoel0974 » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:25 am

King Clyde wrote:
hgoel0974 wrote:
fate6 wrote:How about we get back on topic, If someone wants to take this "thanks" fest to its own thread then go nuts but come on guys!
This^
Please stay on topic guys.
Today's progress included some code cleanup, bug fixes,creating a means of configuring settings for the loader by a menu/any homebrew, starting homebrew on a separate thread so the loader can handle other background work while homebrew is running, the ability to add hooks and some test code for exit and suspend combos.
Finally, for menu developers, I've put together a library in order to allow making menus that work with VHL, there are still a few things missing for proper multitasking to be handled by a menu, but that should be done in a few days. There is enough to launch homebrew though. LibVHL is at https://github.com/minPSVSDK/libVHL

Changes to end user experience aren't significant enough for a new build, there should be a new build tomorrow though. Feel free to ask about any features you think VHL should get and I'll see if I can do it. :)
You could possibly have an .INI that allows you to configure settings such as Restart VHL on Crash, Current Framerate, Current Application Speed, Current Application Running Time etc. (The last 3 being primarily for homebrew developers) Maybe it could generate a log or something? I'm not sure just figured it would be a neat idea so I'm just throwing it out there :mrgreen:
Thanks for the suggestion, I do intend to have something of a developer mode build which provides detailed logging related to function calls, but for the time being, it's not as high priority to implement immediately. It'll likely happen once the normal loader has all the currently planned features.
"If the truth is a cruel mistress, then a lie must be a nice girl"

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