So according to Sony, you can’t resell your Disc-based games anymore…
Update: various sources tell me that this section of the T&C’s is actually super old, and this is not news at all. Feel free to contact me if you know *when* that was added to the T&C’s
The latest update of the Terms and Conditions on Sony Europe’s SEN website started a little buzz in the Sony community. The culprit? Section 7 of the “Software Usage Terms” in the legal documents section of the playstation.net website.
That section states:
7. Resale
7.1. You must not resell either Disc-based Software or Software Downloads, unless expressly authorised by us and, if the publisher is another company, additionally by the publisher.
For many gamers, the possibility to be able to resell physical games was a major reason to not go with digital downloads so far. It also goes without saying that the legality of this statement is highly questionable in many countries.
More importantly, this comes only a few months after Sony had publicly mocked Microsoft regarding their own statements about “sharing” and reselling games. If you don’t remember, that’s the video Sony had released at the time:
5 months later, Sony pushes a rogue update of their terms and conditions, which completely goes in the opposite direction. Remember when I said Sony had broken many promises in the past and would probably do it again? Seems like one of those…
However Sony’s Shuhei Yoshida quickly dismissed the issue on his twitter account, but sony yet have to publish an official statement or update of their terms and conditions. Notice also how he is only mentioning the PS4, while the Terms and conditions could actually apply to any device accessing the PSN, meaning the PS3, Vita, and PSP discs/cartridges are also impacted.
If you are concerned about our new European TOS, we confirm that you are able to sell or share your disc PS4 products, including in EU.
— Shuhei Yoshida (@yosp) November 12, 2013
So what do you guys think? Giant misunderstanding, or Sony trying to illegally force you to give up your reselling rights?
I don’t understand this anymore.
I hope it will not get worse.
Sony is already at it’s worst. I wonder how it could get to any point way past than worst.
It is our right to sell what we own. As a legit PS3 user I often end up buying second hand games due to budget constraints (I have my own family, afterall) so if Sony is serious about not allowing us to buy/sell our games then I will be forced to buy pirated stuff.
true not all of us can afford to get things from day one, sometimes bargain bin is your best friend lol!
The only issue with this, is that you don’t own anything you purchase from Sony. You are only buying a license to use it. Remember George Hotz? He was sued for trespassing because he opened his PS3. Sony claimed that they don’t sell people the PS3, only a license to use their hardware.
And yet another 180? Maybe the ps4 should also get a nickname like the xbox ONE80?
I guess if it really comes hard to hard (lawsuit, sony suing someone selling his disc games) they would loose that one and also damage their reputation.
They cannot forbid the purchaser (owner) to actually resell his belongings (games) if everything is legally done right (taxes, fees…).
That paragraph 7 holds nothing in a real suit and is only a scarecrow for the most gullible of users.
If you are concerned about our new European TOS, we confirm that you are able to sell or share your disc PS4 products, including in EU.— Shuhei Yoshida (@yosp)
If this is somehow even bothering you, you shouldn’t have been into gaming at all. Nintendo cardtriges have had ‘not resale/rental’ all those years ago and not a single F*** was given.
Yeah.
I can remember all of the original xbox games had that print on them to “Not for rental or resale”… nobody cared and cares now.
Jep , it`s super old.
GT2 for the PS1.
http://nl.tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29mnasg&s=5
We are the fools! They are the rich guys… 1 more reason to the hackers to be motivated!
“So according to Sony, you can’t resell your Disc-based games anymore” wich is why you buy 1 game and get 2 from amazon in US, one for you and other to sell 😀 (joking) 🙂
Yoshida already responded saying that people are misunderstanding the Tos. Used games can be sold, nothing has changed.
https://twitter.com/yosp/status/400129434264805377
Lol nevermind, really got to read the whole article before posting. Still, nothing to worry about. This whole thing has been blown right out of proportion.
Does this apply to normal consumers or retailers who are selling used game in the shop? It is kind of crazy if gamers are require to have a license or a permission from Sony to sell back the game, so I assume the term refers to the people who are involved in video game business or something.
Do they not understand that by applying these ‘laws’ & ‘conditions’ they are indirectly motivating ‘pirates’ & ‘hackers’ to jailbreak and make all games available to everyone … and people WILL jailbreak their consoles simply because not every is Bill Gates and more than 70% are those with constraint budgets who can’t afford every new 50$ game.
Forget that paragraph 7, it is a “stellar remnant” out of the ps1 and ps2 times, it holds no meaning nor does it hold any power. Nintendo had that phrase in ther TC and on every product a long long time before, maybe someone @ sony thought we need that phrase too.
Since then it is in there and will remain for all eternity in sonys TC.
All i can say is ……………………………………………………………
Im not going to buy ps4 then,how about that Sony MF? XD.
If you are concerned about our new European TOS, we confirm that you are able to sell or share your disc PS4 products, including in EU.— Shuhei Yoshida (@yosp)
I’d say it’s a misunderstanding. Of course they don’t want you to buy and sell used, because they lose their cut unless retailers that buy and sell used have a contract with Sony.
I say it’s a misunderstanding, because how many preorders have Sony gained because of Microsoft’s announcements for the X1? It would be a huge mistake to go back on that now.
Not too sure about how Gamespot plus other shops that resell products brought in by people operate with Sony, plus others and/or the game publishers, however giving the chance of buying their previously purchased products at a low price sounds really like a heavier hurt to the business than simply reselling or sharing the game from purchaser to another – unaccounting eventual taxes these authorised vendors have to pay to Sony + others for reselling and taking their products in – due to the money they lose for not selling fresh new copies in regular stores.
Does anyone know if these authorised(?) resellers are taxed by game publishers for reselling used games?
Its not really a misunderstanding, its pretty clear. These terms are here to nail someone to the wall if they want to for selling used items. Plus it gives them the ability to charge individuals or resellers for permission to “sell” used games if they want to. (they probably wont, but could) They say one thing in public and write down something else… not surprised that everyone fell for their announcements. They really have to change the eula or they will get slack for this.
This would be illegal in the US, as it violates the first sale doctrine. Not to say there isn’t a chance of that changing, as the US hasn’t been too good on “rights” and (specifically corporate) court cases recently, but presently a ToS like this is unenforceable.
it’s pointless.
when a law gives you a certain right in europe, no EULA or T&C can take it away from you.
and it so happens that a while ago a judge determined people in europe have the right to resell their software licenses.
and apparently some high-up guy from sony pretty much said “our lawyers wanted that line in there, but we don’t care what you do with your games”
… sorry squiggly, site is acting up.
this wasn’t meant as a reply to you, but as a separate comment.
I assume this will get stuck in pre-moderation too, but I was just attempting to say that first sale doctrine makes this aspect of the ToS unenforceable in the US. Terms of Service cannot void legal rights, beyond certain ways like arbitration as opposed to lawsuits.
Well There Goes Buying A PS4 Its Just Like The “OTHER OS” SCEnario…..
haha, SCEnario, well played sir, well played
Doesnt everyone have this stance on reselling games but no one listens anyways? They legally cant stop you from reselling anyways
Its Always Something.. Give Us Great Features…Then take them Away I’m Getting A Steam OS.. Its Actually “YOURS” When You Buy It. And You Can Upgrade I And Install Whatever You Want.
Selling != Sharing.
get it?
I look at it this way. We already do not own our consoles. ( seriously, read the ToS before responding, you are technically leasing your Sony device. )
We don’t own our digital games. ( I had a very long and heated argument with a manager when my ps3 account got banned and I wanted to retain my Vita purchases. He stated that with digital games we purchase a revokable license. Again see ToS. )
Our services (including any digital purchases) can be retracted for any reason or no reason at all. Completely up to the discretion of Sony.
Now I’m just waiting for the change in the ToS that states “any software purchased for use with your Sony device is the property of SCEI. At the time of transaction for said software, the consumer purchases a license to be allowed access to said software, which may be revoked at any time.”
Granted that last bit is speculation on my part, but if they want to enforce this whole “not reselling disc-based games” thing, that’s the approach I would expect.
At this point, I can’t see logic in continuing to be a fan of Sony. Even if you never modify your hardware or run homebrew, they can still screw you.
Oh and an after thought to “legit” users, if someone gains access to your Sony account through ANY means, they consider it a “failure to protect your account” and is a violation of the ToS. (per a manager I spoke to) So say someone is packet sniffing your wifi network and captures your Sony account info and uses it, they can and will ban you for it if they find out. (this may seem like an extreme example, but it CAN happen)
ToS’s can say plenty of things that aren’t enforceable. For example, it is absurd to claim you don’t own your PS3. Sony can choose to ban you from their services, or refuse to repair it even for money, but they have forfeited ownership of the PS3 when selling it to you. So, yes, you don’t own a PS3 or Vita in the sense that Sony can reduce the utility of the device by eliminating their services, but the actual device is entirely yours.
Now obviously you don’t own the technology or IP of the PS3, but Sony can make no claim on your individual usage or sale of your PS3. There may be some countries where such a ToS is enforceable, of course, but the first sale doctrine and your physical purchase and control of the device means you own it and Sony does not. This cannot stop Sony from punishing you in other ways with their services (which is why digital games are kind of a gamble), however, unless they do something so absurd to such a large number of people as to warrant some sort of court case. And they won’t do that because they WANT customers, so they can only punish small groups like those using CFW PS3’s.
But I agree with you on not being a “fan” of Sony, though of course I would apply that to just about every company. No company ever has your best interests at heart, except when those interests increase their profits. (and due to flaws in humanity and most institutional structures, even many non-profits may not act fairly or morally)
In most cases I agree with what you say on companies seeking profits. Strictly looking at the gaming scene though lately I keep finding myself returning to Nintendo and Steam.
While their ToS’ in some cases are similar to Sony’s, they are not as, (what’s the word I’m looking for…) overbearing with it.
Steam kinda stands apart in this, at least for now, but I have never heard of someone losing hundreds of dollars
to Steam without due cause.
Now as for Nintendo, while their ToS says they can ban you or revoke your rights to your digital content if you mod your consoles or cheat, I have never heard of a case where this has occurred. (Granted their digital systems have room for improvement) They seem to just simply patch exploits and keep it moving. I personally have no problem with Nintendo’s approach as it stands so far.
Microsoft I have no idea what they are like, as I have always had a PC and their as been no Xbox exclusives I felt pressed to play.
So if I were a “fan” of any of em, it would have to be Nintendo and Steam for the time being. I sincerely hope neither of them drastically change their policies.
I guess a different name for the ps4 can be ps2face.
Liers.
There goes wololo again spreading rumors and lies!! Smh
Your the type of person who only reads what they want to believe!! Why don’t you read the facts.
You call a tweet from @yosp ‘fact’? How about an official statement from Sony legal department, and actual removal of that paragraph in the t&c instead???
They can say whatever they want in their TOS, games are going to be sold regardless of it xD. There are second hand shops where you can even sell games that specifically say “Do not re-sell” hahaha.
Please actually understand that this isn’t an enforced comment. Sony has no intent on making you unable to sell your Used Games, Shuhei even confirmed it’s just boilerplate bumpkis that goes into everything…
I mentioned the tweet in the article : this is not enough of an explanation. They should remove it from the tos if it does not apply.
Actually they shouldn’t remove it because this line just means that "PEOPLE CAN’T SELL THE SOFTWARE ITSELF WHICH IS THE PROPERTY OF THE COMPANY BUT CAN SELL THE DISC.
LET ME EXPLAIN, YOU CAN NOT SELL ASSASSIN’S CREED (a disc-base software) BECAUSE YOU DIDN’T MAKE THE GAME, IT’S THE PROPERTY OF UBISOFT, BUT YOU CAN SELL ASSASSIN’S CREED 3 (a PS3 disc) BECAUSE YOU PAID FOR IT.
makes sence
Well, it honestly sounds like Sony WAS going to do the same thing as Microsoft but after seeing the backlash that they got, decided not to and said there was no DRM. So instead they just say that there isn’t any DRM to seem like the good guys. Might make sense why there is a day one console update just like XBone and why they said in the terms that you can’t sell your PS4 games.
Hmm, that sucks. Sorry if this may be a dummy question, but does this mean I won’t be able to resell off my new extra copies of PS3 games now? I sometimes buy two copies of one game only, if I know the game is a huge hit and later on, the game would be really rare one day, and the collector-type person that I am, I’ll probably be keeping the new extra copy in a special place for viewing or resell.. Are they really serious about this? :\ Thanks for reading guys.
Wow guise, those “not for rent or re-sale” lines are old like the dinosaurs, it’s funny how you get attached to some text, like “hory sheit, i cant sell mah games cuz some letters say so, fuuuk youuu sonyyyy, evil witches”
seriously, move on….
I see two sides. Although, I know it’s typical tos ***, they really could just remove it if that’s the case and they’re willing to admit it. Done.
Actually they shouldn’t remove it because this line just means that ”PEOPLE CAN’T SELL THE SOFTWARE ITSELF WHICH IS THE PROPERTY OF THE COMPANY BUT CAN SELL THE DISC.
LET ME EXPLAIN, YOU CAN NOT SELL ASSASSIN’S CREED (a disc-base software) BECAUSE YOU DIDN’T MAKE THE GAME, IT’S THE PROPERTY OF UBISOFT, BUT YOU CAN SELL ASSASSIN’S CREED 3 (a PS3 disc) BEACAUSE YOU PAID FOR IT.
That’s funny. I sold a psp go on eBay and I burned the digital games (plus licenses) to DVD-r which I included in the listing. I still have another psp I can play them on. I sold games I still own, lol.
I’m kinda facepalming at the moment due to the responses. This is in basically every TOS since the 90s that involved within gaming.
It’s talking about the SOFTWARE, not the hardware, i.e discs in general.
In other words you can’t resell the software that’s on the disc, like say if you somehow are able to pull the models from the game, but you CAN resell the disc the game’s on.
i thought the ps4 games had to be like activated to a ps4… which would make using games on an other ps4 hard….
it…..
yea i jus it say u cant sell ur backups basicly or downloaded games but u can share the disk games
And this is why we cannot have nice things.
gizmo was nice mog yi
so i jus ask sony or the game company and if its okay then no biggy so if gamestop ask sony or the game company n if was okay the it be okay
From what I undertand of the agreement, you can sell your used games, but you aren’t allowed to open a store to distribute games (like eBay)
No it means that you can’t sell “software downloads” or the software from the disc but you can sell the disk it-self as you don’t own the software when you buy the disc, yu just own the disk.
You can make a entire *** industry to distribute your bought game disks worldwide if you want.
I don’t get why people have a hard time wrapping their brain around this!
As others has mentioned above, this has been going on for a very long time. I remember getting PS1 games from Japan with the No Resale or Rental logos.
My guess is that this is a power Sony is granting itself but is not enforcing. Maybe they are saving it for that very rare and exceptional case. In the end, if this has no real world implications, it means nothing.
It will be extremely difficult for Sony to reverse course now and start banning resales of disc-based games. All they can hope to do is try to convert as many people to go digital. Allowing competition in the digital store arena is a step towards achieving that.
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